Episode 46 Father and Son Talk Construction
Episode #46 | David Williams | Father and Son Talk Construction
On this episode of the Curious Builder Podcast, a father-son duo swap stories from decades in the business. Mark talks with his dad David about the dramatic shifts that have occurred in home construction since the early days of his career. From navigating high interest rates to adapting to new technologies, they discuss the challenges and changes builders have faced over 50 years.
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David A Williams Construction
David Williams is Mark’s father and has since retired from his construction business
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Mark D. Williams<br> 0:00
All right, welcome to the curious builder Podcast. I'm Mark Williams, your host. Today I'm joined with a 30 year veteran who has now been retired for 20 years. My dad, David Williams, welcome, Dad,
David Williams 0:10
thank you.
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:12
I thought over the holidays, we kind of fun to take a break, but had this idea to bring you in and kind of get your story on record and chat a little bit. So a lot of people obviously in Minnesota will probably know your story, at least the older ones, but you have a great story to share. And so I thought we'd start a little bit from the beginning and tell us a little bit about the evolution of I think at the time it was David Williams construction and 1970 I think you started construction. Right?
David Williams 0:35
That's right, close to that and 70 or 71.
Mark D. Williams<br> 0:38
So before that, let's go a little bit back to your history of growing up in the service industry. You know, tell us a little bit about that and some of the flight background because building was not something you even wanted to get into.
David Williams 0:51
Well, I really never thought much but what I was going to get into you know as a kid you don't really know but we did grew up in a service station background and so and we live close enough that I was young enough that we either walker or take our bicycles down and before we were old enough to get up to wash windshields, we we clean the bathrooms and so just kind of when I remember we were seemed like wants to work quite long hours because we'd run home grab something eat mom and make hot dish because so we could all eat at different shifts because we always needed to, to work and and I enjoyed it. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:30
that was an ANOVA right.
David Williams 1:31
That was in an oca. Yep.
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:33
I always laugh because that's the Halloween capital of the world. So every time Halloween would come around, I was thinking about an Oka. How. So how far away was the service station from your guys's house?
David Williams 1:44
Well, dad had a he had many service stations, we've had houses just about you know, he had three or four different stations from Skelly to Standard Oil to union 76 to. And so there was a number of different brands, probably the last one was Skelly station and so on. And just in a little town, so you kind of knew all the town folks and fond memories.
Mark D. Williams<br> 2:09
Now did you basically what do you guys also the mechanics as well? I mean, what did you all do for service? I mean, I know he changed oil filled up gas wash windows, but how far in do you know car mechanics did you and your brothers get
David Williams 2:22
my brother Dwayne who's just a year and a half younger than I am, he was more into it than I was. I was I was an am a terrible mechanic. What it takes to for most people to do in an hour takes me one day and so but I'd change oil and put studs and tires and and pump gas with back then we always pumped her get the gas and we always wash their windshield. And and yeah, they put in $2. So one of the big sales deals there would you want your car filled? So they'd say yes, rather than just put into dollars. And so I don't know, the car to go across town back then. I mean, cars didn't get that good of mileage back then 1015 miles to the gallon. And so I mean, they drive around the block and can be back again for gas. I think maybe just the hat was washed their windshield. I don't know. They weren't
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:14
driving very far, it probably wasn't very dirty. So obviously through this, I assume through high school, then you were at the service station, that was your job, or do you have any other jobs?
David Williams 3:24
Well, Dad also built a home or two. And we moved a fair amount as kids and so we were kind of dad would build our own homes. And so we were kind of involved in that as far as what I recall, like clean up and working knowings the subcontractors etc. And so I don't know we but we really figured that service station was really the business but And as time went on, he probably built more and more. So I got involved more and more with construction toward the latter years of high school.
Mark D. Williams<br> 3:59
So was he building spec homes and then selling them? Or was he building them for people for sale? Pre selling them? I
David Williams 4:03
don't really know remember? Yeah, I think I really don't remember. I mean, I probably both.
Mark D. Williams<br> 4:10
I mean that would have been in because you were born in 1950. So that probably would have been late 50s. Early 60s. So definitely after World War Two. I mean, that was kind of a big boom like anywhere across the United States I'm sure of post war veterans building homes right? Yeah,
David Williams 4:24
I suspect it was good. i You don't pay much attention. You just see the people buying gas for the people building a house but you don't really consider any of the business part of it. I think is your youngster. Yeah, of course
Mark D. Williams<br> 4:37
not. So after after high school, you went to junior college?
David Williams 4:42
Yep. I went to an oak Ramsey Junior College because it was inexpensive was close to home. And but my really I really really wanted to get into flying. I had somebody take me up in an airplane when I was man. I'd be in seven, eight years old. I don't even know Lyle Anderson from Princeton and man, I was just hooked. I just wanted to fly anything I could do. I wanted to fly. And so that was kind of the dream that I wanted to do. And so everything I did after high school is really centered around that.
Mark D. Williams<br> 5:16
So, and that's when you went down to Omaha to the flight school. Right? It was actually in Oklahoma,
David Williams 5:22
Ardmore Oklahoma, they had a flight school down there, American fliers, it's no longer there. It was an old Air Force Base. And I got all my I got my private license when I was 16. So audited Anoka County Airport, and then, so I had a license. And then I went down there and got all the other multi engine and instrument, instrument instructor and all that. So I was down there for a couple of years, as I recall, it was accredited through a university down there. I can't remember the name of it either, because we'd never went to campus there. But those credits transferred back to the University of Minnesota along with the credits that I had from Anoka. Ramsey, so then, and then I graduated in business, from the University of Minnesota,
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:11
that would have been what, 6869? Somewhere in there.
David Williams 6:14
16 970. Yes, yeah. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 6:18
was the goal originally, when you went to flight school was to fly commercial airlines.
David Williams 6:21
Yeah, I really, really wanted to fly commercial. And so I came back and flight instructed for a few years through college, kind of to help pay for college. And so I was able to do that and stay even so to speak. And so yeah, there were there was, and I think that was a huge thing for me, because so many of the people that were trying to learn to fly were older. And so it was kind of a deal that I was communicating with people that later that there was an age group above myself that could afford a bio home. And so I was able to, I felt like that helped me communicate with them. That's coming out of the vector out of the flight instruction that I did. So that
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:06
would have been pretty unique than that. I mean, you said you got your flight, your license at 16? Or you were able to teach at 16? No, I got my license at 16. And what age were you when you were allowed to start teaching?
David Williams 7:16
I suppose a couple of years later, so I was probably 18. I
Mark D. Williams<br> 7:20
mean, that's got to be pretty rare, especially at that time and right that you'd have a 19 year old kid, essentially, we're a teenager, teaching adults how to fly. That can't be that common. No.
David Williams 7:36
Just remember just being as poor as a church boss, I had a little motorcycle I don't remember if it was my dad's because dad sold motorcycles at the gas station or whatever. But in motorcycle helmet law came into effect. So it must have been when I was about 19, late 1960s. And I forgot my helmet. And I didn't know what to do. So I grabbed an ice cream pail those plastic ones and put it over my head with a strap underneath my chin and went to the airport. Wouldn't you know that a policeman saw me and stopped me and I got a ticket for no helmet
Mark D. Williams<br> 8:14
What did you try to argue that you had a helmet on? It just wasn't a very good one. Oh,
David Williams 8:17
I know. I would have.
Mark D. Williams<br> 8:20
I've never heard that story before. That's amazing. Oh, wow. Okay. And so because Vietnam was over in the mid 60s, early 60s, who was
David Williams 8:29
right about that time, and I they were drafting everybody. And so for whatever reasons, I did not get drafted. So. But a lot of people that I went to high school with, were in that and I just call it luck or whatever you want to call it. But I was not. I didn't have to go to the service. And
Mark D. Williams<br> 8:49
at that time, then to again, make ends meet you were also doing private flights. Right. You were flying? Who would pay for your services? Did you work for a company for charter flights, because we'd talked earlier that you had flew Hubert Humphrey a little bit around, like
David Williams 9:02
some funny little things that was for United power Association out of Elk River. And so they had a deal. They flew power lines, and I don't remember exactly how I ended up doing that I was actually going along looking at we're looking at the hunting season in particular because they hunters would shoot the insulators off of the telephone lines. And so we'd look for a broken insulator, so we had a five very close. Oh, wow. And then
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:27
just just to vandalize people, we're just shooting telfa something
David Williams 9:31
to shoot at. There's no deer, you got to shoot it something in a glass. I'm sure we're just shatter so they. So we'd fly all these power lines.
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:39
I don't even know. Little glass thing you see on the top of telephone poles and like cartoons, because I don't even think they even have those anymore. Oh, absolutely.
David Williams 9:46
Yeah. All the Yeah, they wouldn't be tempted to now
Mark D. Williams<br> 9:49
that you mentioned it. I think it would actually be kind of interesting to shoot. But yeah, little vandalism. So walk us through, you're flying around. So you're working with a charter flight or who are arranged flights
David Williams 9:59
well we call as a fixed base operator. I don't remember how I got the how I was that I worked for United power Association but the for sure the flying the power lines at one point they had a small twin engine airplane and I flew copilot on that and we had Hubert Humphrey along it was after he had been vice president and remember coming into you're supposed to have back then you think you still have to have it but radio transmitters license to talk on the radio or you're supposed to have one but Humphrey he could. He was an amazing politician ignoring what side of the political spectrum you're on here. Chi was brilliant. He could tie in families and names like an AI. It was unbelievable. But anyways, we just we'd fly him to these political things. And he'd have somebody along with them that would say that, you know, that's John Smith, brother in law or some crazy thing and he'd pick up on, he could pick up on anything. But anyways, we're coming in to Minneapolis Airport. And it's a busy terminal. Of course, it was busy then and is even busier now. But I gave the mic to Hubert Humphrey. Had he got permission for us to land
Mark D. Williams<br> 11:16
because he wanted to cut tall the radio tower? Well, I
David Williams 11:18
wanted to call because it was. So anyways, I put him on the radio to to call the tower and get permission to land is what I couldn't remember. So that's
Mark D. Williams<br> 11:28
funny. It actually reminds me speaking of names and politicians. Remember, we were out skiing when we were kids. And we ran into Rudy Bosch sweats. And I was thinking, you look like Abraham Lincoln, big tall hat. And he was a politician here in Minnesota for a number of years. And but his incredible honor, he walked right up to you and said, Hey, David, Hi, Debbie. These are kids, Mark and Ashley. And, and you hadn't seen him in decades. But he was somehow related to the plywood business or he was he was associated somehow with building supplies or some Oh, yeah,
David Williams 11:56
he was like, I don't they had Minnesota something rather. But he had a major deal here in Minnesota that he did very, very rare. Well, I
Mark D. Williams<br> 12:07
just came to me now just to remember how amazing he wasn't named. It's one thing you know, we'll talk about this a little bit later in the podcast. But you know, obviously, I've done pray to homes now for 20 years you did to pray to homes for 30 years. And I wish I was better at names. I'm very good at faces. You see people come in your home time and time again. But oftentimes I you know, unless I have a meaningful interaction with them, sometimes it's hard for me to remember their names. Were you during your career, especially with like the great homes and the number of people you saw? Were you good at facial recognition, good at names, or neither or both?
David Williams 12:37
I think facial recognition to mean some names you'd remember with what's always been rewarding for me all through the years is I just talked to somebody yesterday, I forgot to but that I'd built for 50 years ago, and we're still close friends. And so we just some of these relationships that we did nearly 1000 homes just shy of 1000. Home. So we spilt and then that's so if you multiply that minimum at two times that because you got a husband and wife most of the cases, and then all the kids, there's no way that Yeah, but it's amazing how many I do remember.
Mark D. Williams<br> 13:15
So after it was kind of I remember as a kid, I mean, we, you know, not knowing anything, like you said, you don't remember all that much about business as a kid. I just thought it was normal that your dad would have an airplane. And so I mean, the number of airplanes that you had, I still think it's kind of funny that when you and mom met, I think it was 1979 I think your first date was on an airplane. And I was named after you know, my Uncle Mark who died in a plane crash and mom hated flying. And the first question you asked her was, Do you like flying? And her answer was yes. And then you guys then you flew her. You big romantic to Wisconsin for a dinner date? I bet she was. I wonder how she handled that. She must have been okay. It must have been good. Good weather that night. She loved
David Williams 13:55
flying until we got married. And I might add she also loved horses until we got married. So yeah, I just a funny visual. I don't know if I can explain it. But she went in and I told her to put a halter on a horse and she came out somehow she got this thing strapped on the horse but she had on the face of the horse. She had the halter upside down. So she had holding the halter right between the horse's eyes leading this crazy thing onto this stall was
Mark D. Williams<br> 14:25
either a blind horse or very tame horses. I don't think it was but like that. Oh, my that's funny. All right. Well, let's get to the building side of things. 1970 Roughly, you started building and you had mentioned at the time I think it was because all the pilots had come back from Vietnam got all the commercial jobs that's why you did not continue to commercial flying is all right.
David Williams 14:45
Well, it keeps saying that it's going to open up next year in the next year in the next year have long story just flying never opened up. They could get a high time pilot that had flown jets coming out of the war and whatever and so they I'm coming out of out of a private practice like I had done. There really wasn't any jobs to do. So I decided to do it, service station or building and I really kind of like building and so anyways, I started I went to my uncle. And he gave me a few dollars out of his pocket so I could have spending money and and I don't remember how much but it wasn't very much. And I started our first twin home. And I thought, well, if something doesn't sell, I will. We'll rent it. Well, they just that person that bought that buttes five ditional houses beyond that over the years. No, that was Hal Henderson Oh,
Mark D. Williams<br> 15:46
funny. Owl bought your first house. No way. I wish the audience can meet l Henderson. Oh, man, wow, that's amazing. How did I mean, you obviously must have bought the land from somebody. So the money or it's at that time was a development to people, because I know things were a lot different than than they are now. And sometimes a developer would offer up their land, and then you pay them at closing. How did you navigate paying your subcontractors, you know, the house plans walk us through some of those early years of navigating that we
David Williams 16:14
didn't have to have that much money because as a general rule, the subcontractors would wait to get paid until you get the house done. But also keep in mind, unlike today, it takes just talking to somebody down in Florida, it takes them six months to get a building a building permit through and we get a building permit in a few days. And we would have a good size home done in 60 days. And so we could really back then we could turn them out, we get inspections. So I don't know why it had to go from 60 days to six months to a year or longer for bigger homes. But it was crazy. We'd build fancier homes, if you will later. And some of those, we get them done for the parade because we needed to rush them. But it wasn't wouldn't be unusual to say 90 days, we can get that done. Not a problem.
Mark D. Williams<br> 17:07
I mean, that's so hard to relate to. I remember that when I first started, I remember asking you remember for whatever reason, 120 days was your original contracts. I started in 2005. You Your mom had been retired for about four years. And I remember looking at your old contracts. And I didn't know any better. My first house was a spec. And I know it took a longer than 120 days. But to think about what we do now 20 years past that. So 50 years past what you're talking about now, I mean, for me, I mean, it takes anywhere from three to six months in design. And probably, I think, eight months to a year and a half to build the homes in Granite are much more complicated, much bigger, but even so, 90 days, 120 days, that's an outstandingly fast,
David Williams 17:47
and someone would do them in less than 30 days. That's
Mark D. Williams<br> 17:51
just unfathomable. I know obviously here in Minnesota in all across the country, one of the biggest topics of discussion for zoning and planning and even building as affordability. And obviously the time you started, there were no national builders, at least in Minnesota. And I guess the other huge advantage you had was for cash flow management, if you if your all your subcontractors are willing to wait till the end, which doesn't sound like they have to wait very long. It really allowed you to not need money to build a house. So the barrier of entry was probably quite low.
David Williams 18:23
Sometimes we would have 500 or $1,000, down until closing. And so it wasn't unusual. We had one really unique one that just comes to mind now but it was there the just a marvelous little family. They had two little young girls, and he was dying of cancer. And the only way they could pay for that home is when he died. And we started the house knowing that he would die and he died right on schedule. And the family moved in. And it was just a delightful man. I can picture him right now. That picture is a little family. Oh, wow. But so he had some emotional things going through that. But we that was very, very rewarding. From the construction standpoint to see young families, families moving into your homes, and the kids were all excited, and the parents were all excited. And these were even relatively modest homes back then. But it was that was very, very rewarding and continues to be so and you'll see people that you built for American kid out in Montana, who grew up in one of our homes and his parents still owned it like 30 years later. But those things are very rewarding over the years.
Mark D. Williams<br> 19:37
I think I mean, you touched on something pretty special that you and I've talked about a number of times, but whether you're you know whether you're living in a tent, or a $5 million house or whatever, you know, home is really where your family as in the memories that are created there. I mean, it is a pretty special privilege as home builders to construct something that is a place for all these family moments to exist and I mean, a lot has been shared, not necessarily on this podcast. But you know, I don't think just because you build a more expensive home necessarily changes that dynamics, meaning that everyone, every home has special memories. And so while we're very privileged to build very high end and very nice homes at the end of the day, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that we're building for families. And that really is part of the the main joy of I think, when you ask builders, why they get into it, and why did they do what they do? Or the subcontractors? Why do they do it, that's one of the biggest things is that they get to work for families. And you know, building a home is an essential need, just like food. What in those early years, you were building, how many homes a year at that time,
David Williams 20:44
it seemed like we made a jump from about four or five homes in those first few years. And that was pretty amazing, really, but we jumped up to that 3035 range, and we probably did between 30 and 45 homes a year. So that's how it worked out. And that's pretty much what we stayed, we'd have five or six, during those good years, we would have four or five models going. But then a mean, houses just sold. So every 60 or 90 days, you're just pumping out another started another model and close on that one. So there were we had, we had a lot of good years building. And I used to tell other builders that you know, don't get to set that you're doing such a great job we have, we're building in a great economy. And if you build nice homes, they're gonna sell that's kind of the way it was. And those people at that time two homes are really, it was consistently going up. And so if you bought a home today for two 300,000, the next year, it'd be worth considerably more, they would make more arm in a year or two that I made building things. And so that was rewarding for me as well.
Mark D. Williams<br> 22:03
I've actually used that as a sales line before that, you know, just the idea that if people ever had an issue with how much money you made on a house, or it's mostly perceived, because, you know, frankly, if you never told me this, by the way, getting into business, that becoming a builder is not a way to become wealthy or rich. In fact, it's a good way to lose your shorts. But anyway, the point of it is, is the appreciation that the homes would would gather you always I remember asking you this as a young kid asking you like, did you ever feel bad making money still figuring out like, how does one navigate this world of business, and you said, just what you just said, it gave you a lot of satisfaction that while you had a good living, and we had a lot of privileges, because of owning your own business and becoming a builder that ultimately the people you built for not only got to enjoy a beautiful home, but they actually made significant money off of it. And that gives you a lot of peace and satisfaction. So that was a pretty I've used that a number of times as you know, I navigate these same conversations with you know, clients and today. Because sometimes, you know, obviously, you'll see someone who sells their home, you know, like, Well, man, I know, I built that for a million, they just sold it for 1.4. Like, and I'm happy about it like it doesn't that's the other thing like it doesn't actually, I mean, I'm glad that they're home, appreciate it. I mean, you know, you build something that's really valuable and good. You know, your aunt, your uncle Jeff, or your brother worked for you in those early years as well. Walk us through it. Did you have an office manager or Secretary early on? When did Jeff come on to be a site manager? How big was your team in those early years?
David Williams 23:30
Well, my team really stayed the same i All I had was a secretary and somebody out in the field. And I kind of seem like I ran the sales. And that was I don't remember how long I would have run the sales before. I really felt like in many respects, I needed a secretary more than I needed to Foreman because I could get out in the field early on. And so but somebody to help con or coordinate between the buyer and what they wanted built into keep that up. And so, but most of my career, I had simply a foreman and a secretary and that was it. And really up until the very end that's so I had a relatively small operation. And and yeah, a number of people that had similar operations have a lot more overhead than I did. But we were able to make it work. There was one particular plan that we built was a modified two story and it was we built a 250 of those just this basically the same home we changed little things and we come up with new names. It was called the Aspen and we that was a tremendous little house for us. And we built a lot of those. So it just it dependent. Yeah,
Mark D. Williams<br> 24:51
but you always built to the market. I remember even as early kid when I was going to start building You encouraged me at that time. You'd already been out of it for four or five years and you're You encouraged me to go on the Parade of Homes and look at 20 3040 homes, find out which one sold the best, figure out why it sold the best and then build something similar to that. Tell us a little bit about the aspect because that's essentially the evolution of that Aspen plan that you were so successful. I mean, that was a quarter of the homes that you built over 30 years was essentially the same plan.
David Williams 25:21
True enough? We we might, that was when I see the marketing that Mark goes through today. I mean, it's we were archaic by by comparison. So the Parade of Homes was a huge thing for us, because we would get new people in and it would reaffirm people that like Mark has where you people come back and see your product year after year is kind of cute, because we always have to look at an opponent they all started looking like. And so one of the little things, one of the things we did was put a little train track around one of the bedrooms in it go out into the hallway and come back. And after they look at a dozen homes and little kids are there, they just, they all blend together. But they remember that there was a house with a little train track that ran through it. So you tried to come up with something that they would remember your house with. And so yeah, and really, when they came to see our houses, they weren't coming in to see Wow, they're coming to see our homes that we can afford this. And we can have a home like this and little Johnny had run through the house and Sarah had run through the house and other way. They'd all pick out their little bedrooms and come back all smiling and happy and jumping up and down with their parents. And so yeah, it was very, it was very rewarding that
Mark D. Williams<br> 26:41
that first plan that Aspen, where did you you had seen that plan? Was it out in Seattle, or you were that was someone local? I mean, it was something you improved upon, right?
David Williams 26:53
We did both the street of dreams. So more expensive homes. And we also did what they call the street of reality. So we did, I simply we got into the street, a reality show, which was very good for us as well. And so I just we got into the second year that they had that. And I just simply asked the people that promoted it, what was your best seller and they said this little this little modified two story I said, Well, that's one of the one I'll build. And I did. And then it kind of took off. We'd done similar plans to that before, but so I know exactly what it was. And we just took off on that little plan and it was affordable. And it was a very, very livable house. And that was a successful plan. But of course we build another 700 homes that were different than that, too. So
Mark D. Williams<br> 27:45
I was I always thought it was funny that someone else and you and I don't get offended by this kind of thing. Maybe because you're my dad and you taught me not to be offended by it. But like this idea of you know, imitation is a form of you know, flattery. And so someone came through your your house, like it's so much took the plan off the table, started building it down the street modifieds two stories, and he didn't call it the Aspen he called it the NASA Aspen spelled backwards. Oh, man, I always thought that was hilarious. And you were you were fine with it. It didn't it didn't bother you.
David Williams 28:16
No, that's very true. How?
Mark D. Williams<br> 28:19
So? Uncle Jeff, your brother worked for you for what a decade? How long did Jeff work with in the seven I don't really
David Williams 28:25
know, probably for 1015 years. And then he went on his own for 1015 years. And then we finished our careers together and so on. We went very, very well, actually. And so I had a great brother and and he probably liked the field, and was better at it than I was. I seem to like the business side of it more. And so we had a really, we think a lot of light. But we both of us had in our private companies we did well. And together we did even better.
Mark D. Williams<br> 29:01
Yeah, that's a cool story. We've had a couple of other you know, son and father teams on the podcast and husband and wife's I haven't had brothers on actually, I think at some point would be fun to bring Jeff on to talk about their his perspective as well. I remember just triggered here as a kid used to always tell me that you could be a good builder, and you could be bad at business and you won't make it and you could be good at business. And you could be a bad builder and you would make it and hopefully you're good at both. You described yourself early on as a you know, people used to call them suitcase builders or you know, we've talked about it now that you know you own a business that happens to be building but for a long time. That wasn't something that was probably appreciated like it is today. Did you ever face any flack that you didn't frame homes yourself or any of that kind of stuff? Or that was never really a thing?
David Williams 29:53
Well, it's still Yeah, people used to tell people you're a builder that oh, you're a carpenter and I couldn't hardly drive a nail and still can't, without bending it. And so it's, but I love carpentry. I've worked all the trades. I have utmost respect, I think. And I really believe that well customers, we've talked mainly about those that bought our homes. But I cannot say enough about the subcontractors that, really that we had for years and years and years on end, and very few of them did you have to change certain trades, it seemed like more than others, but there's so many of them, and they became lifelong friends and still are. And that that, again, is a reward that is carried forward as well..
Mark D. Williams<br> 30:49
It's funny you say that, because just recently accompany so DJs Don Savitsky. He, I mean, you work with him your entire career, right? Correct. Yeah. So that was 30 years, he's worked with me, my entire career for 19 years will be coming up on 20. In May, they just sold their company here in the last day or so 50 years, you know, our H fat company has been one company. And it's funny how that the new company I heard is only really interested in service. And it's actually been kind of sad, because that relationship, you know, for me, it was Rick and Tom and seeing them and talking to them all the time. And, you know, Tom came up to me at the basement of one of our recent homes, and he came over, he shook my hand, he's a pretty stoic dude. And you could see tears in his eyes. And he just said, I goes, I don't know if I'm gonna see you again. But I just wanted you to know that I appreciate you and your family and all the years that we've had together. And, you know, it's a little bit like, you know, I mean, for him to say that as super emotional. Because he's a pretty stoic guy. But to your point, these are some pretty long standing relationships that it does make it very rewarding, just because it's a people business. We're building homes for people. But the people you get to, you know, be in the trenches with, they also care what they're doing. So
David Williams 32:01
the same person just text me a week ago, happy holidays, Tom did.
Mark D. Williams<br> 32:06
He's first class man.
David Williams 32:07
He's fresh, and a plumber you've had I had him for, for my entire career. And Mark has had him and he was a guy, we both Jeff and I gave him a few dollars to get started with in business. And he started, he was working with his dad, and he wanted to do his own thing. And so went from his dad to him. And that
Mark D. Williams<br> 32:26
was Brad and Rick. Right, right. And Brad passed away about a year ago, actually. Right. And so now Rick and his son, Mitch, are still carrying on the plumbing generation. So there'll be third generation and so but anyway, so that that part is really cool. It's pretty rare that that happens, especially as you get different platforms in building, sometimes the subcontractor base, depending on what the skill set is, may not be able to, you know, come up, but it's been pretty amazing to watch the trade partners that we you know, as long as they work hard, and they care about what they're doing. So just with those two things, you can pretty much do anything if they're willing to do it. And they have been, you know, some that we've definitely asked them to do some pretty crazy things over the years. And speaking of the plumbers, I remember on my own house, I don't know if you know the story. I used to put in my own drain tile. And I was building a house out in Chaska. And we used to take these 10 inch 12 inch railroad spikes and drive them through the drain tile because I like interior and exterior drain tile. Well, long story short, I knocked it through. About five months later. Tom grew I don't even Andreessen I guess I was calling Tom group, but he's not a group. Anyway, looks like Popeye for those that don't know who I'm talking about. He's got the forearms the size of my thighs. And anyway, he comes over and he said Mark, he goes you owe me lunch and a shirt. I'm like, why is that? He goes because I just spent the last four hours fixing a hole you made. So that spike somehow I drove it right through the watermain of the house. It was those are the copper ones not the new PVC once they have Well it must have just got into it and somehow seal it so the water didn't manifest itself for a long time. Luckily he stopped it but you can imagine those big pop by arms trying to get down at the concrete ripping it out and changing out the waterline underneath the footing. Needless to say, I bought him lunch and definitely he has shirts for life so but I bailed him out one time I have long long arms or he called me one time on one of his job sites. And I forget what it was it was something down in a trap or I don't know where it was and he said Oh no, it's a six inch PVC pipe and there was something stuck in the bottom of it. And anyway I got my arm all the way down to my shoulder and was able to grab it you know he couldn't get his fingers through that thing. And so anyway I guess to each their own reach have a unique skill set. So mom came along in 1980 She did your interior design. What did you feel like at that time? Ma because you had mentioned before what was something that set you apart and you thought mom's interior design the way that she was able to connect with obviously the you know the missus homebuyers as well. How did interior design sort of elevate your brand compared to other builders?
David Williams 35:00
Well, I think I've matured as a builder and as a businessman really about that time, so I'd been building for nearly 10 years, but really the success that we had or didn't have, but Well, definitely, I definitely feel like my wife definitely had a huge influence on making the business more successful. And, and one of the things we offered was is that we offered her as a free service to be able to help people decorate and she knew so little about it, she's colorblind. But she, she, she has a way with people and she has a way with colors even though she's color deficient. And, and the people just loved her. And so we're or I lacked, she just shined. And really, she did that through my entire until I retired till we retired and, and really any successes that we had was really attributed to her, I often tell her that we were in this together. And she did. She did. It was a she was an amazing helpmate to in the building.
Mark D. Williams<br> 36:17
I mean, she's 73, same age as you are. And she told me the other day, she's running six remodels right now. You know, as an interior designer, right, because she just so loves to help people. I early on in my career, before I knew what interior designers were in terms of like paying them and all that kind of stuff, you know, Mom was more than happy to, you know, help her son, of course, who want healthier kids. And so those early years, you know, mom was very helpful. And in fact, I've had a number of clients that, you know, even to this day, I was like, Oh, I loved working with your mom, or the family operation. Or, of course, even now with our Parade of Homes. You know, sometimes from a staffing standpoint, it's always important to me, because we aren't a big company. And because I you know, in many ways, I am the company in terms of my personality and the relationships that we build with our clients. But at our parade homes, I'm I'm always insistent that I be there for the whole parade. Now, my wife is also very helpful and allowing me to do that, because it's a big burden with three kids, you know, Thursday through Sundays, to be at the Parade of Homes. But I feel like that's pretty paramount for our brand. But I bring up mom, because mom will usually volunteer her hours and help on the weekends. In fact, even on weekends, I don't ask her to show up, she shows up anyway. And I can't tell you how many times people will disappear into the house. And, you know, an hour later, they'll come down like, oh, we just had the greatest conversation with your mom talking about, you know, design in your career. And so even to this day, she's a pretty outstanding, you know, salesperson, and on top of being an incredible person. So if you
David Williams 37:43
want to design or show work for free,
Mark D. Williams<br> 37:46
that's true. She does, like design. Walk us through some of the challenges that you had in your career, like any business owner, business is hard. You know, I don't remember the exact years. But you know, you at some point you were facing 20% interest rates, you know, this last year with inflation here in the United States. You know, I think we're at seven 8% interest rates were the highest that I've seen in my building career at 8%. We've had a few contracts cancel because of it. But we've also had historic lows, you know, zero 1% 2% Looking back at you, you sharing, you know how you got through 20% interest rates seems just unfathomable. How did you navigate those years?
David Williams 38:24
Well, I was thinking, you and I talked about it briefly. But I think starting business was you know, like what do I do? You know, do I build a house? Do I tried to sell it? What it What am I going to do? What are the risks and the Harley? I think identifying risk is a huge part of being in any business and so you try to identify risk and and and then we hit those Carter years where it was unbelievable. We had it did go to 20% interest and so people were paying builders were paying 20% fees just to for people to get loans. And those loans were like at 8% And so by the time we got a profit in there, and by the time you put in that other 20% It was difficult a lot of builders did not make it I honestly don't know how we went through those times but somehow we came out shining on the other side of it and so yeah, that was amazing thing. And then the other one that really sticks in my mind is that you think sheet rock well what I mean gypsum I mean, anybody can make sheet rock and so we had a sheet rock shortage and it lasted for quite a while. But we had a real good shear brothers did an amazing job on supplying their customers with sheet rock but they literally stopped the industry. I mean, you could not get a
Mark D. Williams<br> 39:57
sheet rock with to do anything else. I mean what you do plywood and paint it? I mean, is there any way around it? No,
David Williams 40:02
I mean, I don't know anything that would be halfway reasonable. So, but somehow we were able to to get through that period that was, but there were always these things. I always said we were either busy being busy or busy trying to get busy. Well,
Mark D. Williams<br> 40:17
I just use that quote yesterday, actually.
David Williams 40:20
Yeah. And so, I mean, I think we worked hard. We had a marvelous lifestyle. Are the kids were mark and Ashley, but they were. We had a marvelous lifestyle. We weren't the rich and famous, but we had a marvelous time raising our family. And so it was, it was it was great. But we also worked very hard, long hours. conscientious and just, and there's just like any small business like that, it just the entrepreneur takes I mean, you got you working with insurance, you're working with building products, you're working with subcontractors, you're working with buyers, et cetera, et cetera, and then trying to look ahead, so do you find land and where you're going to build and what you're going to build? And so there was a lot of stress associated with it as well.
Mark D. Williams<br> 41:12
One of the things that you have done that I didn't really do in my career next year, we're just looking at some small developments now, but, you know, Vasko Bernardi, you know, came over here and what the 70s bought, you know, hundreds of acres of land in Chaska Eden Prairie area, and you and a couple of the builders would I mean, talk, let's talk a little bit about, you know, the mini developers, you know, they kind of disappeared in 2008, after you retired, obviously, we had a major downturn from 2008 to 2011 12, if you will, and I feel like the middle developers are the ones that went bye bye as the national builders kind of came onto the scene and really had the pockets to withstand a lot of this stuff. But walk us through those early years of what that meant, you know, you would go you would go and, you know, have a development, but you weren't actually developing the land till later in your career. Can you speak a little bit to just that relationship with developers and and how that played a role in building homes?
David Williams 42:05
Yeah, I mean, it was another relationship. So the one mark just mentioned as far as Bosco Bosco was a very he was engineer came out of Italy built a lot of stuff in Italy, went to Mexico City built a number of high rises. And then they ended up here in Minneapolis. And he's since gone. But he was an amazing guy. And he developed a lot for small builders like myself, and there were a number of developers or somebody would have a piece of land. I'm thinking of one in particular over in Eden Prairie and and it was a great site. And we didn't know we had 1520 Lots there that we had tied up with who knows what, probably shoe laces of mine? I don't know. I mean, we didn't have I don't know how we but anyways, then we start building in the way they'd sell. And so it was the the, for our economy back then. We really counted on people, the small developers that develop land for us as well. Do you remember
Mark D. Williams<br> 43:08
so like you always talked about good competition, and I that name Pete Korea comes to mind. You know, we moved to Chaska in 1986. I was six at the time. And we built her house over on Lake Bavaria and now cheval and a bunch of other communities around that area. And but the Kerberos were always there. And you know, klingele has come to mind. Carry Gorham. Yeah, I don't remember some of these names. But walk us through a little bit about the community of builders, were they all part of the building association that pray to homes? Is it because of the proximity you guys were just kind of close to each other? Because you always kind of viewed it as like, it was good, you know, kind of the rising tide floats all boats, I feel like you were maybe a little bit ahead of your time in terms of understanding that by having multiple good builders as options. It apps it it actually raised the bar or it raised the industry as a whole
David Williams 44:02
good competition is just good competition, I don't know. And I we won a lot of a Reggie awards and which is basically what I considered you had the best value in that price range. And so that was always rewarding, but those that you considered some of your best competition when you could win against them was rewarding, I think of Gary Gorham in particular, because he was probably early on in my career. And so if we could, if he'd went what I would, I didn't like coming in second, I wanted to be first and so it didn't mean you you could afford you couldn't afford to lower your price but you just tried to do a better job and construction and and making the whole thing work. And Mark he was from the north side of the city and the ones Mark mentioned were from the south side of the city but you know, they're just there were a lot it's, it was an industry that had built like high standards as far as their personal life and carried forward into their business life. And so it was, it was very rewarding.
Mark D. Williams<br> 45:08
The Parade of Homes, you had already mentioned a little bit about that train tracks and secret doors. And that's something I would say I'd call you a bit of a showman. And it's something that obviously, I'm a combination of both you and mom's personality. But I would say I, one thing that I really enjoyed doing is being a showman to our homes like I, I love to sort of show people the home that you built. And I know, most builders would be this way. But I've had people over the years come up to me, and they say we chose to build with you, because years ago, but when we couldn't afford a house, you would come over and talk and this as a young couple at the time that came through, they're probably in their young 20s I built from when they were about 30. And they said We interviewed a lot of builders, but it was because of how you interacted with us, and didn't treat us any different. Even though everyone knew that we couldn't afford to build a house, it was the way you engage with us that we said someday we're gonna build with you. I feel like I learned that from both you and mom, in how you are hospitable towards everyone that came into your homes. And I remember going to the Parade of Homes, you know, as a kid, and I remember going to showroom selections with mom, you know, I couldn't have been more than six, seven years old. And for whatever reason the memory comes with me now like BNB carpet one, they had a little place that man, I'm dating myself. I mean, I remember playing with like Fisher Price toys while mom was probably working with your clients, it was like bring your kid to work day. Anyway, I think it speaks to the unique characteristics of building a home for families. And that won't be a turn off. Because as a family building for families, I have to believe there's some mutual attraction and relatability between the two parties.
David Williams 46:42
Respond, it's rewarding that you have fond memories of stuff just all working together. For most of my career, it's kind of interesting. But I had my an office at home that's we operated, I added sometimes we had a separate building of where we live, we moved a lot just because we put our house up for sale along with those other models. And because we had a few dollars with the furniture in the house, that was a house that would sell and I'd come home and Honey, we're moving again. And so Oh, really?
Mark D. Williams<br> 47:15
Moms I mean, in now having a family. I don't know how you guys moved as often as you did as a kid, though I have no recollection of it. Really. It just seemed normal. You don't know any different. And I think because kids are so resilient and so pliable. I think sometimes as parents now being a parent of three, I'm sure that kids would be just fine. It's really as parents how we, you know, we're trying to do the best we can just like you guys did, you know, I think from 1986 to I think 1999 You guys stayed and that was one that's the longest you've ever lived in any house in your entire life. Is that right? Other than probably the one you grew up in?
David Williams 47:49
Or not even well, even the one we grew up in my dad and kind of in the same wave later, when I would have been in my teen years, we moved a fair amount. Yeah, as well. And so the longest thing we ever owned was a place we had a little cabin in Montana, right. And that was the longest we live but we lived in a couple of those houses about 678 years. And we moved close to 20 times. And so I always
Mark D. Williams<br> 48:15
laugh because our family is known for selling anything. And mom has always been amazing ly willing to move but at later in life. I think she even likes to move and keeps changing. So I think she's either always been that way or is like that. But I remember the story where you guys were gonna move into that house. Real close to the office here in Excelsior it was over in Shorewood or Chanhassen. And anyway, it was at the end of cul de sac had been in the parade. Mom was shutting off the lights. And a lady came in at six o'clock and mom had shut off all the lights. And she said oh, I'm so sorry. I wanted to come in and see the house and mom of course like Well, of course come right. And so she turned all the lights back on. And she toured through the house had a great conversation. And then the next day you guys were gonna move into that house, all the boxes were in the garage, and you came in. He said, Honey, I've got bad news for you. And she's like, you sold it to that lady last night, didn't you? And it was a twins relief pitcher who had just signed a contract. And so here she is ready to move into her house and you know, has to move right back out. Where did you guys go after that?
David Williams 49:16
I have no idea. Probably one or the other models. We had some place or apartment. I
Mark D. Williams<br> 49:20
don't know, oh, man, that she's been pretty flexible over the years. That's for sure. What transitioning a little bit from as we kind of come into the end of the podcast walk us a little bit through so you built for 30 years I built now for 20. What are some and you've always said, Hey, only takes a year or two and you feel like you're sort of out of the pulse of you know what's happening in some ways. What are some big changes that you've seen? From your career to what you've observed in the two decades I've had my career in building, night
David Williams 49:54
and day construction, two by six walls and the windows and So much of that in. They've had small improvements through the years. So there's no question about that. I think the houses today are better than we built 20 years ago, I think the houses we built 20 years ago are way better than the houses they built 20 years before that. But the marketing today in the social media is mean, it's like, from outer space for me. I mean, even sitting here in front of this microphone, it just so how we communicated with our secretary had a secretary that had rather loud voice, and so we would just yell back.
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:38
If you knew her, you would, this Margaret.
David Williams 50:41
Yeah, she was a marvelous, marvelous lady. She still has my checkbook. And she usually tells me you don't need that
Mark D. Williams<br> 50:46
what I was, she was my first meal. She was my first office manager. Yeah, she's
David Williams 50:50
amazing. He had. So it was just these things. I had other secretaries. But she was the bulk of my business for many, many years, I don't know, maybe 20 years, and these 20 years since then. So she's been around a long time and been a huge help to me. And but anyways, she lives now about 10 miles away. And I still think we can use the same intercom system because she has a rather loud voice than I do to just roll up the windows
Mark D. Williams<br> 51:16
and yell outside. I like that. From a obviously you've had huge communication changes, right? I mean, at the time, I think you said when when mom met you, you had one of the first mobile phones, and it was the size of this table. You said it plugged into your your plug in your lighter, I would assume on the council for power. What I
David Williams 51:35
think that's why she married me because she thought I had money because she didn't know anybody else with the telephone. And it was this great big suitcase thing. And so you drive down the road and I talked to her on the way home, it was just kind of at the beginning of phones. And so anyways, it was kind of interesting. I don't know I couldn't even afford that crazy telephone. But when you're a small little operation, you could call people so and it was scratchy and everything else and shorter coverage and etc.
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:03
You know that again, going to communication, obviously, email, internet, I remember late later on in your career right towards the end, as Mr. Or Loski. You remember him? He was actually my teacher in high school was your he was you know, internet was just coming out of the scene. I remember you paying him to set up your first website. Oh, funny. And but anyway, for whatever reason that name comes to me right now. But I don't
David Williams 52:26
even remember having a website? Well.
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:30
I do I'm hesitant to share this story. But do you remember the time it got hacked?
David Williams 52:32
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Do you have to share this story? Well, no, I just somebody called me and somebody hacked it and put porn on there.
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:42
Yeah, this is like, this is like no one even knew what that was at the time. No, it
David Williams 52:47
was crazy. But we got rid of it really fast. So I mean, now you hear about different things. But I mean, I yeah, I don't
Mark D. Williams<br> 52:55
know where ahead of you are ahead of your time, that would have been I remember that was like 1999 1998, because I remember I was a junior senior in high school and heard that story. And I remember talking to Mr. Loski, because you called him in to help you solve it. I don't know if you guys changed domains or whatever. But
David Williams 53:09
yeah, we didn't even know what a domain was. Right? I didn't at least
Mark D. Williams<br> 53:13
I'm sure there's lots out there that still don't. Obviously, the internet's been a huge help in terms of communicating even this podcast, you know, essentially, it's like radio, except you can listen to it on your phone anytime you want, things like that. So in some ways, it while it's a new form of communication, the way it operates is actually somewhat similar, which is I think, why people resonate with it, just sharing stories, and in hearing people chat about, you know, their careers and their business. And I think that's the powerful is as we can share, you know, I was lucky enough to have a dad and a family of builders. I mean, it's kind of odd that my uncle built on both sides of my family, grandparents. I mean, I have a lot of building all around me, it seems almost laughable that I had zero interest in building when everyone around me was building and then everyone retired. And then I started building. So it's sort of ironic now sitting here 20 years later, interviewing you about building
David Williams 54:02
the one thing that comes to mind that I still think the order of things hasn't changed in the fact that Parade of Homes you meet people face to face. And then you have the telephone and then you have social media and I think sometimes it's society now because from social media goes goes the other way around, but you still need that you still like and thrive on that and it comes down still to your game got feeling with who you're working with, whether it be a subcontractor, one of your people that built homes with you or whatever and, and future relationships that it it's still that one on one.
Mark D. Williams<br> 54:45
I would agree with you except I would add this that there is no substitute for being a person. And obviously if you're going to build a house, you're going to likely spend a lot of time with that building group that you pick. I will say that social media does allow you to get a sense of who that person is before meeting them before it's a phone book, it might just be a name, where usually one of the first things people will do if they're interested in a company is they'll go to the website, they'll go to their social media pages, especially if they're showing their people in some people elect to show on only their work, which is fine. It stands for itself, many architects, you would not know who they are, and their work speaks for itself. I've elected for good or for bad to highlight, try equal measures and both the work that we produce, but also the personality of our team, because relationship building is so important to any homebuilding. And I feel like, I want to, I want the client to know, for better or for worse, whether they want to engage with me, because, you know, we have three kids, you taught me balance, I think very well, in terms of like, we love to work, but you know, I don't live to work. I love what I do. But I don't need to do it every second of the day, I have so many hobbies and like you, you know, you've been retired now for, you know, 20 some years, and you've got 87 Hobbies going on, you know, people sometimes will say, Well, what are you gonna do it and retire, I'm like, That is not going to be a problem, I have a lot of hobbies. And do remember the advice you gave me about hobbies? If you're gonna have hobbies, as an old person have hobbies as a young person? So mission accomplished.
David Williams 56:16
You just done well with that.
Mark D. Williams<br> 56:20
What do you recall? Is that usually end the podcast, kind of on this note with talking about how you educate yourself? I don't recall. How did you self educate? You know, were you a big book reader in terms of business? Did you? I've gotten a lot of value over the last couple of years and, you know, really meeting with other builders sharing ideas and reading business books like I've never done before. How did you get inspired? And how did you? Because I know you're a highly curious person like myself, how did you feed that itch for learning? Well,
David Williams 56:55
I go to seminars, they'd have different building deals around the country. And so I would go to those and that was helpful. I always thought one of the things that I missed having a small popcorn, Stan, what I called the was interacting with other people, like in a large corporation, you got a division and your you got a dozen very smart people around you. And so I missed a lot of that deal. But I think, because I was curious, and still am curious, to find out why the plumber is a plumber and find out why the you know why a builder is doing this or why a builder is successful, why he isn't successful. And so I think, analyzing it probably, there weren't a lot of stuff to read. But the seminars were very, very helpful over the years and then just being in the marketplace, doing it was a huge help.
Mark D. Williams<br> 57:55
I just thought of it while you were chatting about that learning, I think like you, I don't think a lot about regrets. I'm sure if I thought about you know, Do I regret a certain decision because I could have had a more fortuitous outcome of course, but like true regrets, I have very few. But one that just came to mind is in 2009 and 10 when things were really really slow. I, I had purpose and like, well, if I have this much time, I've always because I've not really been a handy builder. Turns out even less handy than you I think. But the point of it was is I wanted to go two weeks and work with every single subcontractor in the field, because I also greatly respect their trade. So I wanted to work two weeks with the cabinet shop two weeks hanging drywall two weeks painting, in an effort to better understand not only their craft, but to show them that I appreciate what they did. That's one of the only regrets I have that I did not do. And it's because you're lying of are you busy being busy? Are you busy getting busy. And man, when you have nothing going on, you are absolutely scrambling trying to build a house. And those years were so lean, I remember even I couldn't, couldn't get enough sales for my own company. So I went, I had one home going I remember, but I was I was the project foreman for another builder for about a year and a half, just to you know, put some coins in the meter, if you will. And so the idea that I would have, you know, two weeks, you know, times however many trade partners that are, you know, a couple of months of time, I didn't have that time. I'm actually even my mind right now thinking about it, like if I allocated, you know, one week a year, you know, I probably still could scratch that itch if I ever really tried. But anyway, did you ever have an interest in trying to explore some of the other trades during your career? Yeah,
David Williams 59:42
I think so. I think you know, we made roundtop windows for major Lumberyard here in Minneapolis in and so I had hired somebody and bought some equipment and so I got interested in woodworking which I I still do and so I. So there are a lot of things on different the different trades, I mean from plumbing to. I mean, I think I have a little grasp of all of them. And I enjoy that. And so I, I can fix stuff, but like it was back in automotive build, I can fix just about anything on a car or in house. But it just takes me 10 times longer. And part of that may be age, I don't know, but it just takes longer to try to do it. It doesn't pay to do it. I might as well get a job at McDonald's and hire somebody but I enjoy doing it. So that's
Mark D. Williams<br> 1:00:36
funny. Well thank you very much for coming on. Usually we end the show with people sharing their websites and how to get a hold of you but we don't have a website. So if anyone wants to get a hold of you, they can contact me on my website. And you can have a cup with a cup of joe with David. So thanks for coming on dad, and thanks for joining the curious butter podcast.
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